Has anyone ever bought a ship off contract in Jita or from an unknown source elsewhere? Have you ever bought in to a friends EvE business, fincanced a POS network or just donated someone some in game ISK for a return later down the line?
Do you know that if you do any of these things you could risk losing your account? Permantley banned by CCP?
Well Gilgamesh now knows this.
A few weeks ago Gilgamesh1980 and his other 2 accounts got banned for 14 days for breaking the EULA. When he first started the game he had a RL friend who asked him to put up some hard earned ISK to go towards a POS network in exchange for monthly/quartkey payouts down the line.
He missioned, saved and bought a few GTC's to donate to this friend in return for a stable revenue to help him in his EvE career. So far so good. It lasted a 3 year period.
Then one day a few weeks ago he got a message from GM Nova. His accounts had been banned as his 'friend' had been selling and buying ISK for real money out of game. He had also been selling high end items for real life money.
Gilgamesh knew none of this and when he got banned for the 14 days he asked the GM for a full investigation to clear his name. The outcome? Permanent ban of all characters.
Gilgamesh was in Iceland this last wekk and managed to speak to two GM's, A member of the new CSM Teadaze and also with CCP Navigator. They all recomended him to appeal again and CCP Navigator also asked for a copy of the petition to be sent to him.
Now, Gilgamesh, last night, sent a long email explaining the circumstances in which he finds himself. Gilgamesh works for an IT security company in Ireland and has dedicated himself to protecting peoples identities while online.
Unfortunatley, the person who was scamming, breaking EULA etc, was a RL friend so most conversations took place out of game on a private work email, these can not be shared with CCP due to the confidentiality clauses most companies have these days.
GM Nova answered Gilgs email this morning. He flat out refused to let him appeal. He has also refused to forward the petition on to CCP Navigator or to escalate this matter any further.
Now I'm going to rant a little here about CCP. I don't know what they are thinking. Yes, Gilgamesh1980 financed a character in game which he was led to believe was kosher, he had no idea what was going on, he thought it was a legitimate in game business.
So this leads to a question. If you buy a ship of contract from an unknown source and that person has broken the EULA to gain those assets, through ISK buying whatever, does this mean you have now broken EULA cause you are now part fo this and may finance the unknown player into selling more ISK out of game?
If you buy into a friends POS business and get a return on it over the next few years, could you be breaking EULA because that person decides to buy some ISK out of game? Apparently so.
You know what, I really hope Mynxee reads this. As head of CSM this year does she have the contacts to maybe get someone to look into this case. Someone ABOVE GM Nova, who is refusing to escalate this innocent persons petition?
I know alot of Pirates have blogs. I also know alot of people read my blog through Capsuleer, and there are some really influential people in the blog pack, some who might of even dealt with Gilgamesh in the past. Python Cartel used to be in the Associates. HellCats and Mynxee used to be/are good friends with the Associates even tho we all pew pew together.
This is not right. CCP need to look into this matter further. And I'm not talking about GM's I'm talking about people like Claw, Mindstar, Navigator. People who can look into this matter and come to a fair conlusion.
I leave you with these words.
I bought a pre-rigged ship on contract a couple of weeks ago it cost about as much as the ship would off market but had rigs also.
If that person had have been doing RMT etc and got caught, whats to stop CCP coming back to me and banning my accounts, they've got as much proof there as they have for you that im in on it and can ban me? Seriously...
Fly Dangerous but most of all, stick to market or contracts from people you know! o/
I've posted a link to your article, and a small op-ed piece about it, on mine.
ReplyDeletehttp://eonjunk.wordpress.com
It is issues like this where there is a clear indication that not all is well with the CCP process.
ReplyDeleteI can certainly say I've known a guy who was buying isk, he had his account reduced to negative once caught...but I bought stuff from him...and now I get to live every day in fear that all my work is for naught since I'm obviously a known associate and guilty by that association before and even after proven innocent.
Nuts.
this is just bloody stupid.
ReplyDeletei will post a link to your article on my blog as well.
That is the stupidest thing ever. I can't tell you how many times I have petitioned people that have TOLD ME they buy isk, and they still are playing AND I'm sure buying isk to this day.
ReplyDeleteIt is a real nightmare to deal with the GM's in this game.
A couple of thoughts here.
ReplyDelete1) I feel bad for Gilgamesh1980 if he is truly innocent. I have been in that situation and received a lifetime banned for something I did not do and a minor infraction.
2) I have been in the GM position and seen a lot of crap that people try to pull. The outside sales are a real problem with real liabilties.
3) I hate the lifetime bans and believe a better solution is possible. Particularly when you talking about a GAME...
4) Finally, take note and ALWAYS be beyond reproach. That means keeping all of your communications concerning EVE in a recordable channel that can be turned over if required.
OMG This is horrible. I had ccp pull some crazy shit with me .. but this is just wrong . This is like stuff I would go ape cocka over and ya..shit would happen lol
ReplyDeleteThat's terrible pigheadedness on the part of GM Nova, and what is the point of an appeal process when the original decision maker vets the appeals.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the natural justice CCP!
Thanks guys. Nice to know that the message gets out. Thanks also to Manasi. His blog gets alot more hits than mine so this could be good.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone else wishes to right a blog on this feel free. The more people to here the message the better!
If it can get back to CCP then brilliant.
Mail
@ Eonjunk - Thanks mate
ReplyDelete@ Meht, we have asked if it is possibel for the accounts to be reinstated with no assets. Aparently this can not be done/the don't want to.
@ Astral, good lad
@ Gerry, points well taken, especially the last 2. We have tried to get the accounts reactivated, like i said above, to get round the perm ban but alas no luck.
Mail
There's an email he can use (I forget the exact address but he should be able to find it on the website) for escalating. He might also contact Internal Affairs, who definitely respond to emails.
ReplyDeleteSomething is missing from this post. I'm sure theres 1 or 2 info that CCP don't or can't give to you.
ReplyDeleteBesides, its not a permaban fortunately.
Something is missing from this post. I'm sure theres 1 or 2 info that CCP don't or can't give to you.
ReplyDeleteBesides, its not a permaban fortunately.
Explain please =)
@ Yriel, thanks mate!
@ Casie, will look for it asap, thanks!
nova is and always be a arsehole se if gil can get around him somehow.
ReplyDeleteTweeted on #fleettweet and #eveonline Hope to spread this out farther.
ReplyDelete@ Dame, Thats the plan. I spoke to CCP Fallout last night and he is passing the message on to CCP Navigator.
ReplyDelete@ Mehtryx, Cheers Mate.
@ Joshua, Again thanks and check your comments =)
That's just so far beyond unacceptable customer service. I worked support for a decade, and if I were Nova's boss I'd be on the /phone/ with Gil right now offering him his characters back along with several months of free game time.
ReplyDelete"Unfortunatley, the person who was scamming, breaking EULA etc, was a RL friend so most conversations took place out of game on a private work email, these can not be shared with CCP due to the confidentiality clauses most companies have these days."
ReplyDeleteBullshit... if he can use his work email to chat about mmo stuff with his friends he can also send the email til ccp.
he makes this massive investment in some irl friends eve business, and they never talk about it ingame?
he knows this person so well he is willing to make the investment, but he knows nothing about the scams he is running?
sounds to me like something dodgy is going on, and he knew what he was getting himself into.
This is ridiculous. While punishing rule breakers is reasonable, I suppose. Permabanning is stupid. What incentive do rule breakers have to become law abiding citizens if they have permabanning hanging over their heads once they break a rule. And if they also go permabanning known associates then we may as well find another game to play before they permaban everyone and EVE becomes a ghost universe.
ReplyDeleteThis is a shame from ccp. It seems like an abuse of dominant position.
ReplyDeletei got banned by GM Nova on both my accounts saying i bought isk. never done it. after finally gettin hold of another GM by spamming ccp with petitions, he said that the ban was mistaken and lifted it, along with reimbursing the time lost. GM Nova is nothin but a useless fucking halfwit. that week, myself and my friends (RL) had a total of 6 accounts banned by this bloody micro-brained wanker.
ReplyDelete@ Ren and Xionor, I understand your point of view however these things do happen.
ReplyDeleteI myself inherited my 2 accounts from a friend when he stopped playing EvE. There was no money or ISK involved he just gave me the passwords and I changed the details in the Account Managment screen to my own. It was all done by phone and text. I have no proof I didn't buy the accounts or didn't break EULA.
Thats what you do with RL friends, you talk to them in other ways except through EvE and come to agreements.
The company also had a compnay IM system in place.
@ Heli, agreed, we have tried to work out if the chars could be reactivated with 0 assets but at this time the GM's are not being responsive to this.
@ Horndemon, Agreed again. I have been in contact with Mynxee and with CCP Fallout to have a look in to this, as well a getting the message to CCP Navigator. Hopefully SOMEONE will sort it out soon.
GM Nova is known for basically being a pigheaded little fool that has too much power - it goes straight to his head, and in his mind, if Nova says it's A, then by god, it is A and nothing will change his mind. And he knows it - that's why he won't let it escalate, because his superiors will reverse the ban.
ReplyDeleteStupidly enough if you make a big enough fuss about it, the superiors in question will find out anyway...
@ Mark, I agree other ways need to be implemented rather than perma bans. The best way I can see, esppecially in the case where they have no proof that he knew what was happening, is to maybe strip the accounts of assets and give them back.
ReplyDelete@ Rene and Xio again. I also have bought rigged and fitted ships of contract in Jita. I have no proof that i DIDN'T know it was purchased using RMT or ISK buying. So do i deserve to get banned if it was?
@ Daniel, Interesting mate, the fact he might have previous ban hammer problems could be of use.
Mail
@ Madcat, Thats sort of the point of this post on the blog. If enough people take up the cause and either comment or add links and posts to there own blogs we can get this looked into by a higher up.
ReplyDeleteI would also like to say that I have had over 900 views yesterday on this one post and would like to thank you all for reading and especially those who have taken time to comment or write up there own blog post on the subject.
I want everyone to Tweet, Facebook, Forum posts, Blog and whatever you can do to get this message out there.
Mail
"Unfortunatley, the person who was scamming, breaking EULA etc, was a RL friend so most conversations took place out of game on a private work email, these can not be shared with CCP due to the confidentiality clauses most companies have these days."
ReplyDeleteUmm, I work for one of the world's largest investment banks (in IT security, no less). We're global, highly regulated and have email policies out the wazoo. Nothing in legislation or company policy prevents me from forwarding a personal email to another external party as long as it's free of any proprietary or client information (which I wouldn't have been allowed to send in the first place). I don't know much about Eve scamming or Eve's RL politics, but if I were this Nova guy, I'd be suspicious as well.
"@ Rene and Xio again. I also have bought rigged and fitted ships of contract in Jita. I have no proof that i DIDN'T know it was purchased using RMT or ISK buying. So do i deserve to get banned if it was?"
ReplyDeleteI don't understand how you can even compare the two things, of course you'll not get banned for using the in-game trade systems.
Trying to get attention on the subject using scare tactics, like saying people may get banned for using contracts is very low, and should be avoided is you really want people to take this matter serious.
@ Rene, Then why would you get banned for someone sending you ISK? There's no law against me sending you 1 billion ISK is there?
ReplyDeleteThe arguement works to ways surely? You say that if he can't prove he was innocent using chat logs then he should be banned. Well CCP can't prove he KNEW about the RLT his friend was doing because as I have said it was all done out of game and on a private work email.
If your working and emailing people from a work email you will have something like
'This email and any files transmitted within it are confidential &
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender
so that their records can be amended. Please also delete the
email from your system.'
At the bottom of each email you send (Within the UK and Ireland anyway) and sending a copy of the email OR chatlogs from a work IM system may result in being terminated from that job.
And no, I do not think it's particularly scare tactics but i will change it slightly.
You give a friend 10 million ISK as he is trying to start out as a trader in Jita. He does well for a while and gives you ur ISK back with a little on top and then asks for a little bit more to invest again.
You agree thinking it won't hurt. He tanks on the market losing everything and can't pay you back. He buys ISK and gives you what he owes you.
He has broken EULA. And by taking the ISK YOU have broken EULA and can be banned even tho you knew nothing about it. There won't be any chat logs either as it was all agreed over TEAMSPEAK as he was a member of your corp.
Same situation as Gilg...
You are talking about someone who bought several TGC's, turned them into isk and gave the isk to someone who is doing illegal isk trading, and you say that is not the least bit suspicious.
ReplyDeleteThis personal is not in anyway able to prove his innocence, because of some bogus non-disclosure agreement, which obviously has nothing to do with personal correspondence. And because they are friends they never use the in-game message system, so CCP just have to take his word for him not knowing anything about the illegal activities of his close friend and business partner.
Basically you are saying that CCP are not doing their job because they don't believe the word of someone, who has traded large sums of isk to a known isk trader, and can't in any way prove his owne innocence.
Next time i'll need to buy some isk, i'll just find the cheapest site on the internet, if i get busted by CCP i'll just tell them that the isk seller was a close personal friend who did me a favor.
I'm talking about someone who did nothing against the EULA and still got banned.
ReplyDeleteI have bought GGC's, sold them and then bought ships and ivested in markets. Thats not the issue.
I hope everyone has noticed I have not deleted the negative arguements on here. This is because i feel everyone should have a fair say.
The fact remains that at this moment CCP have on record that Gilgamesh sent ISK to someone, and he beileved it was to invest in a online game business. This is not against EULA.
He trusted that person just as I would trust a number of my real life friends. He was then betrayed.
It is also a matter of Fact that the person in question sent ISK back to Gilg in payment with a percentage on top. Again this is not against EULA
Another Fact is that all CCP are going on is the ISK movements, there are NO ingame chat logs either way, proving innocence or guilt.
And mate, Email confidentiality clauses ain't bogus, any company has those policies, INCLUDING CCP. When you first start with a new company you will be asked to sign a contract and a Electronic Equipment/Useage agreement.
I can't see that Gilgamesh ever knowingly broke the EULA, and unless CCP can provide evidence that he willingly took part then I can't see that banning is called for.
Mail
"I'm talking about someone who did nothing against the EULA and still got banned."
ReplyDeleteHe was doing business with a isk seller/buyer, giving him large amounts of isk. And the hole being best friends, and still not knowing about the scam just smells funny.
You should read the TOS;
CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.
You're making this out to be a one-time thing while simultaneously saying it was a 3-year relationship. Either it was a one-time thing or it was a 3-year relationship with an initial isk investment.
ReplyDeleteReceiving regular dividends from an ISK trader, whether you know it or not, is quite suspicious. No in-game communication might make it seem like they were the same person (with no need for in-game communication). I can certainly see why the decision was made.
If there truly are communications that prove his innocence, whether on a corporate e-mail system or not, he should produce them. If he cares little enough about using corporate resources for communicating about in-game money making schemes then he ought to care little enough to produce those obviously personal e-mails. At the very least, the text of them even if they are not the originals.
HI All,
ReplyDeletenot creating an account for posting on here but I thougth I might jsut put some comments in to it.
This is the player who used Gilgamesh1980 in the game.
thanks fo the support first of all, and also yes, ther eis much more to the story.
I asked Mail not to post my full three page letter which I sent to the GMs to explain the circumstances, and yes I do know that I am at fault and the way the transactions that I received over the time look like I was buying isk, going by the amount.
the main reason I cannot disclose information about communications is that they mainly went through phone, not email as this was also a real life employee in my department at work, the IM system at work is also set that no communications are recorded in the client side themselves, nor can this be activated. and let's be honest, I am not going to go to an admin in the company and openly admit I used their comms system for out of work stuff and it is the only way I would have to prove my position for a game. sorry but I think no one would be that silly.
my problem with the ban is not that it happened, but more how it has been looked at so far, with a straight uot refusal at first to even escalate it further, and also the total dis interest that it woudl have only been a 14 day ban if I hadn't requested them to investigate this further, which then led to the permaban of my accounts.
finding out after that, that the isk I have been receiving was form hacked accounts didn't suit me well in any way, and it also had RL concequences fo rthe person who was actually doing the hacking and dealing with RMT.
even if I don't get my accounts back I jsut woudl like to see that CCP is not looking at this situation as black and white banning but also give the benefit of the doubt to the player who has spent so much time not jsut playing the game but also created a community which has been in existence for over three years and even when this happened, took the time and resources to fly to Iceland to talk to them personally as well during the alliance tournament.
I know that proff would be the best situation for this, but even under the basis of stating my case, and even pro actively agreeing to hit my accounts with the amount that was illegally transferred onto the wallets, it was completely ignored.
this case has now finally gone to the senior GMs and alongside I have also written some proposals for them on how to prevent these situations happen to innocent or unknowing people and at least even give them a chance to clarify stuff.
just so you know and to ensure I am as open here as with the GMs and ccp we are not talking about a few million isk, the GMs originally stated that apparently in the last six months about 100 bil went to my accounts, which isn't quite true as this included transactiosn between my characters as well, nonetheless I has added about 25 to 30 bil form my memory, which woudl also include other non RMT seller related transfers too.
I am not trying to say it's less bothersome then they are making out, it is still enough, but overall I do want to make sure that changes are made in future to prevent people falling into RL scams.
before someone asks why I didn't notice anything earlier or got suspicious abotu wher eit was coming from, all I can say is, it was free isk, the coverstory was very believeable too and over the time I jsut cared less about chasing it up, the 'payouts' were also random
wish you all the best of luck and hope that CCP does lookinto this further
the Player formerly known as Gilgamesh1980
Rather than post a wall of text, I'll just put a link here to a blog post of my own which explains a very similar horror story to that which is detailed here... http://wisteso.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-you-should-not-invest-anything.html
ReplyDelete